Is SanParks dropping the ball?

Information and Discussions on Management Issues in SANParks
Post Reply
iNdlovu
Posts: 4319
Joined: Sat May 19, 2012 11:58 am
Country: South Africa
Location: Lowveld, South Africa
Contact:

Is SanParks dropping the ball?

Post by iNdlovu »

02.01.2012
iNdlovu wrote:How many times has it been said that Kruger is the flagship of our country's tourism destinations.
I have done a very rough gestimate on what it costs a couple to visit Kruger for a 10 day holiday from Europe, and you could probably double the figure I came up with.
Let's assume the couple stays in Lower Sabi (they'll more likely move around) in a BD2U, and using a 'special rate for airfares and car hire. Assuming meals will cost R120 each per day and R400 per day spending money which needs to include fuel. So as you can see this is extremely conservative. OK, so for 2 people it will cost R38,000.00 and that's without entry fees, conservation fees etc. Now remember they too have read that Kruger is the 'tourism place to see'.

They arrive to find things not working in their chalet, not always clean, items missing, doors and taps broken, light globes broken, dirty and untidy grounds around the chalet, people littering, speeding, flouting most rules. Unacceptable food and shocking service in most restaurants, unacceptable noise levels from staff quarters, grumpy or surly staff (not in all cases), dangerous workmanship on poles and railings and absolutely no concern over the finer points of making guests feel welcome.
I don't know that I would repeat spending that kind of money again, nor would I recommend the trip to my friends

These issues have been reported to Sanparks head office time & time again, but nothing seems to improve judging by the spate of comments on the SanParks facebook page and the forum. What part of this problem don't they grasp or is it just a 'who cares' attitude.


User avatar
Lisbeth
Site Admin
Posts: 67241
Joined: Sat May 19, 2012 12:31 pm
Country: Switzerland
Location: Lugano
Contact:

Re: Is SanParks dropping the ball

Post by Lisbeth »

Penga Ndlovu wrote:I can add that it used to cost us, a family of 2 adults and 2 children including airfares, carhires, petrol etc etc between € 9000.00 and € 11000.00 for 3 weeks of holiday in the Kruger.

Roughly calculated we are talking about R 100,000.00 for 3 weeks of "playtime" of being activated by the above said "disturbances".
Many times over I have brought this to the attention on the other forum and warned them that there will be a breaking point in the golden geese from overseas.
It is rapidly coming to the point where they will only come once and never again and the "word to mouth" will not be in favor of the park.
Lisbeth wrote:That is why we never concentrate only on the parks O**
Lisbeth wrote:Obviously there is a lack of communication between the various levels. Very often the right hand does not know what the left is doing. There is a bad lack of training on all levels. Ignorance of what is of importance. Total ignorance of what service is supposed to be. Accustomed to dreariness, they do not see it or do not consider it important? Absolutely no pride doing a good job. Most of the staff underpaid does not help either. No control from people with competence. Too few competent professionals. Etc. etc.
Penga Ndlovu wrote:
iNdlovu wrote:Wow that's between R90,000 and R110,000.....that's scary :shock: :shock: :shock: and then to get what's going on in the parks now, even worse.
Yes. It is a helluvah lot of money to save up every year, but in all honestly I must say that I did it with love.

Also must I add that there are a few external factors that have driven up the price steeply in the last few years.
- Airfares have risen sharply in the last 2 years.
- Carhire has shot up since the Worldcup soccer and has not gone down.
- The wildcard also contributed to extra costs
- The foreigner pays more for the accommodation etc.

All in all it made traveling to South Africa very expensive and with the economic climate being the way it is, most people are not able to save up that kind of money.
iNdlovu wrote:
Lisbeth wrote:Obviously there is a lack of communication between the various levels. Very often the right hand does not know what the left is doing. There is a bad lack of training on all levels. Ignorance of what is of importance. Total ignorance of what service is supposed to be. Accustomed to dreariness, they do not see it or do not consider it important? Absolutely no pride doing a good job. Most of the staff underpaid does not help either. No control from people with competence. Too few competent professionals. Etc. etc.
Surely this is a management issue that needs the attention of Dr Mabunda himself. Does anyone know how long Dr Mabunda and his current team has been managing SanParks?
Toko wrote:Do you want why this couple from overseas spends all this money when existing infrastructures are not being maitained? -O -O -O

It's because they want to expierence some wilderness and they don't care about accommodation, but if the wildeness will be gone, they won't come back :shock:

Now seriously: We spend about R 100,000.00 per year traveling to/in SA, but never stay for long in Kruger, max. four or five days and then rather in northern Kruger. :?
Mel wrote:
Toko wrote:Do you want why this couple from overseas spends all this money when existing infrastructures are not being maitained? -O -O -O

It's because they want to expierence some wilderness and they don't care about accommodation, but if the wildeness will be gone, they won't come back :shock:

Now seriously: We spend about R 100,000.00 per year traveling to/in SA, but never stay for long in Kruger, max. four or five days and then rather in northern Kruger. :?
Not too far off methinks, Toko! \O We have pretty much this attitude and as long as I don't have to camp I'm happy with what is on offer.
Sure, we have to pay for the airfare and the rental car, but accomm wise it can get even more expensive when you try to get something decent somewhere at the German coast...

I agree on the not coming back part! Kruger is so not appealing to us anymore - especially with all the complaints flowing in with all sorts of rule breaking
and those rule breakers we saw ourselves last time we went... That was actually the final straw to decide to do something different. We opted for KTP which is now our top fav, but I'm sure that place will end up like Kruger one day. Actually, it's well on the road to that already: We saw lots of speeding last time, lots of tyre tracks in the riverbeds and on the shoulder of the road and an amount of littering that we hadn't experienced before. Probably still not comparable to Kruger, but it all starts somewhere...
Toko wrote:
Mel wrote:We opted for KTP which is now our top fav, but I'm sure that place will end up like Kruger one day.
O/ Yes, KTP is going that way, but the problem is the recently developed infrastructure: new reception that looks like a conference building, semi-luxury chalets at Mata Mata, tarred road to the park. It's the higher comfort that attracts more tourists -among them those who would not visit if it was less comfortable :shock: somewhat the wilderness character of KTP is already gone.

:evil: :evil: :evil: One day there is nothing left to visit in SA and then I will go to Khaudom for the rest of my days :roll:
Lisbeth wrote:When I saw the new reception building I was rather shocked, not exactly what I expected and my first though was: Next step is tarred roads and that will be the end of the KTP that we know.
Geza wrote:So many things I could say on this and so many ways it would be interpreted..... :?

On another wildlife forum, I used to get considerable stick for my opinions about SANPARKS management (or lack thereof) from the moderators. I am of the opinion that there is no management. Problems not only perpetuate, but seem to me to gather impetus and get worse, not better.

Speeding is just one of the many examples. In years gone by, motor vehicle movement after dark was pretty much unheard of. During my 2008 trip, I had the dubious distinction of staying at Croc Bridge. There were cars coming and going until around 21h30. Litter is another problem that has grown exponentially in the last 17 years or so. In 1995, litter was hardly ever seen. Now, it is a major problem as far as I am concerned. One only needs to see how much rubbish was cleaned up by LVB and his gang during the Balule clean-up.

In conclusion, I don't believe SANPARKS management are dropping the ball, they have lost it completely. It is my opinion that Mabunda has done nothing to enhance wildlife conservation in South Africa and should resign. He is not the best person for the job. The reason we are here is because we are a group of concerned people who disagree with most of what is currently happening in Kruger.

It does not appear that changing the guard has had any benefits for nature. How much longer before it falls into a state of decay like the rest of the country's infrastructure. With the exception of the recently completed highways around the JHB area, (which is the subject of serious controversy regarding rates to be charged at the tolls) the roads are mostly holes strung together by some tar.

The city center (which used to be the economic hub of SA) is now a crumbling cesspool of litter, badly potholed roads and even worse pavements with most manhole covers missing due to theft.

I think Dr Mabunda and our erstwhile cricket captain are pretty much on the same page. They both have impressive resumes yet that fail to do what is expected of them. O/ O/
Geza wrote:
And if the latest contovercial thread is anything to go by, SANPARKS management have dropped (read as lost) the bal yet again.

Read about it http://www.sanparks.org/forums/viewtopi ... 67&t=58542

The fact that the party happened is not the issue as far as I'm concerned. I am concerned that the staff were not controlled in the amount of noise they made and that it was allowed to go on for as long as it did.

In any industry where one caters for tourists, the guest is not only King, but chief paymaster as well. Thus we deduce that he who pays the piper, calls the tune. This is, in my opinion, typical of the arrogance of present "leadership"in this country. They fail to recognise this simple fundemental. Surely the "good"Dr should know this, but his arrogance knows no bounds. :?

When are they going to realise this? When all the animals are gone and it's too late? Do they care? I doubt it. By then, they will have made their millions from all the kickbacks and bribes and the poor uneducated masses will be left with nothing. No money, no jobs and no employment opportunities.

Eish.......
Richprins wrote:Ja, I heard about that party, and it is by no means limited to Satara or Public Holidays! (Or that music is never played!)

I was chairman of a complex for a decade, and one thing I learned fast is that once a precedent is allowed regarding noisemaking, it is almost impossible to stop it. In fact we didn't even link a cutoff time to noise, as people (of all races) would often go crazy every night and day outside those times. So a simple "no disturbance" attitude was taken, and it worked eventually! :twisted:
Richprins wrote:I've given quite a lot of thought as to the topic of this thread, as it is a very good question!



Sanparks management have indeed dropped the ball, in my opinion.


Not when they decided to build the hotels.

Not when they decided to build the conference centre in Skukuza.

Not when they decided to allow logging in Garden Route National Park.

Not when they began slipping up on maintenance, security, staff control, standards of contractors at restaurants and picnic spots in Kruger.

Not when they took questionable decisions regarding burning and animal management.

Not when they turned rhino selling into a multimillion-dollar industry.

Not with any of the other 50 or so questions being hurled at them.


Sanparks' Management dropped the ball when they underestimated, then ignored, then belittled, then insulted, then pissed off thousands of intelligent and committed conservation-minded individuals both in this country and abroad.

That is when Sanparks' Management dropped the ball.
threedogs wrote:Hang on, I know there are many serious legitimate concerns re parks management (and the wider government for that matter) but you are making it sound like Kruger is in a shocking state with renegade rule breaking visitors wreaking havoc all over the park and infrastructure crumbling and litter blowing in the wind far and wide!! If I had come on this forum BEFORE I made the decision to visit Kruger I WOULD NOT HAVE DONE SO!
On our trips to Kruger we have stayed at BergnDal, Shimuwini, Letaba, Satara, Tamboti, Mopani, Shingwedzi, Bataleur and I have come in on day trips from Phalaborwa. What I have seen is a clean park, with generally very good infrastructure and facilities. Guides and hospitality services were a bit mixed, certainly not bad, but needing improvement in some cases. We saw the odd speeding vehicle - in all cases they were service vehicles. I did see maintenance and renovation happening at Letaba, Shingwedzi and Bataleur. I did see very clean and tidy camps. I did see a speed camera trap on the Phalaborwa to Letaba road. I did see amazing picnic sites which I marvel at. I did have some good meals at Afsaal and various restaurants. I did enjoy two incredible morning walks with very good guides and two excellent night drives ( 1 bad one). I did stay in everything from safari tents to bungalows of all kinds and I do not remember any problems worth complaining about. Yes I know that apparently it is worse in the south and I only spent 1 night and day in that area but I didn't experience anything bad at the time.
By all means keep pushing for the upholding of high standards of conservation AND visitor hospitality but don't do it in such an awful negative way that it becomes a bitter fight. As an outside foreigner I hesitate to say it but it is starting to colour my judgement of what I thought this forum was about. Don't shoot yourselves and your cause in the foot. I say this from a good place and with good intentions.
:?
iNdlovu wrote:Threedogs, thanks for your post and input. What you say is very valid and if you have been in the Kruger recently then I am happy to hear that things are good in the north.

Naturally on a broad subject like this we have to generalise, but you are correct, a lot of the 'working' level employees are doing a darn good job in the various camps and we tend to focus on the bad apples. If however you read the thread which is a compilation of complaints off the SanParks Facebook page it seems there are a lot of problems in the various camps and restaurants. It is certainly not our intention to put people off going to Kruger or any of our National Parks, we love these places as you obviously do, but we need the top brass to start paying attention to the fundamentals of conservation and tourism.
Our 'fight' is certainly not with the average employee of SanParks, but rather with the board and senior executives. Is it not time that they rolled up their sleeves and provided the employees with the motivation, training and reward to do their jobs according to world class standards. Kruger is a unique experience, it is one of a kind, people visit from all over the world, but just because it is a 'wildlife experience' it doesn't mean that it's OK or visitors should accept 3rd world service or facilities.

As you have said the camps in Kruger...all of them, are awesome places and just what people are looking for to add to their game experience, but the level of maintenance and service has gone down hill recently. Again this is a generilsation, there are many staff and camp managers who love what they do and the results show it.
I'm honestly thrilled that you had a great time and didn't run into too many problems, I just wish that everyone that has been to Kruger recently could say the same thing, that's what we are striving for \O
Richprins wrote:Your words are true, threedogs, regarding a negative image being projected of Sanparks. Debate is very welcome here! \O

However, it is not just "me" or "us" that have various concerns. Look at the petitions, media articles, creation of organisations, concerns expressed by WESSA, activities of and cautions issued by the Parliamentary Standing Committee, complaints made on Sanparks' own forum, etc., etc....

If you look carefully at my post, which is not the only one I think you are referring to, you will see that the major problem is one of ATTITUDE by Sanparks' MANAGEMENT that bodes no good at all for the future of conservation.

I would be glad to take you on a little tour of Kruger and show you some things that are not so pretty.

In short, someone reading this thread may decide not to visit Kruger, and so be it, but at least they still have the option for now! :wink:
Richprins wrote:Well, it has become a bitter fight, unfortunately! And pushing in a "positive" way has just left the powers that be giggling for the last 3 years! 8)
Richprins wrote:Well, it has become a bitter fight, unfortunately! And pushing in a "positive" way has just left the powers that be giggling for the last 3 years! 8)
Sprocky wrote:A very balanced post threedogs! \O

The mistrust and resentment unfortunately originated from the SANParks management. They can still not give answers no matter how many times they are asked or worded. So due to this, yes, I am upset with them.

Your careful approach to wording used could also be handy to all of us. The more you post in this manner the more people might follow your example. We can all still fight to achieve our goal, just in a more PC manner.

It will be difficult for me, :oops: but maybe worth a try. So please keep posting here and possibly we will all follow your example. \O
Richprins wrote:I see where you're coming from, 3d!

Many of us are just lucky and priveleged to be able to visit the Park more often, and over decades! :lol:

So it is our good/bad luck to be in a position to have more experience and contacts etc.

And I'm not saying that makes me superior, although I admit it may come across that way! 8)

So we provide information and open discussion, which may get off-topic, but that is the exception! I don't know of any other place on the internet where this combination of factors exists?

And we do have an impact, and more will be forthcoming.

Hope that helps, and please feel free to PM me for specific facts or documents! \O
Lisbeth wrote:Threedogs, I agree with you if talking in general about how to stop quarrelling and leave the resentment behind etc. In normal human relationships it is like you say, but you also mention the peculiarity of the situation in South Africa and that is where the difficulty lies. History, differences, politics, upbringing, backgrounds are such important differences in South Africa that it is not very easy to understand coming from the outside and they are so very difficult to overcome as there are no meeting points. Like two rivers flowing in parallel and never meeting only shouting at each other from afar. In my opinion a generation or two are needed to overcome the differences and start working together seriously and make a great country out of South Africa. All the fundamentals are there, but there is also so much resentment to get rid of....

I am off topic, I am afraid.

If anybody wants me to delete my post I'll do so \O
Richprins wrote:I don't think you are off-topic, as you are replying to 3d, who mentioned "the weight of history hanging clouding the air", for example! :wink:
threedogs wrote:Thank you Sprocky. I am not always so thoughtful; I have in the past been a hothead, a volatile person and I still get a bit hot under the collar or fire off without enough thought. However I started to see that this didn't get results so I tried to gradually change my ways over the years and I found that it made life so much better and I got the results I wanted or at least a happy compromise. I didn't back off from a 'fight' I just changed the way I approached it. I totally understand the passion that Kruger and your other glorious parks evokes in you all (and us newbies too). You know what? What if we could get a number of concerned people perhaps from this forum and a SANPARKS delegation together to not just sit down with crossed arms and eye each other up and fire questions and fire defensive answers back - but if we could get together, face to face, to see that we are just flesh and blood people and not a bad bunch despite our differences and have a good chat and a couple of drinks and a meal and perhaps this could take place not in a conference room, but at say Boulders or the like and everyone could all go on a couple of game drives together and share a couple of days and break down walls and assumptions and misconceptions.......wow, I wonder what could happen? Maybe that would be a start?
threedogs wrote:Thank you too Lisbeth you are so right.
Sprocky wrote:Threedogs, unfortunately an invite and request for a meeting with SANParks management was turned down a few times by them. We are more than willing to negotiate face to face with them, but they seem to have a different and non-transparent angle of attack than we do.
Richprins wrote:There was a public meeting in White River last year, where more or less that happened...http://aikona.forumup.com/viewtopic.php ... kona#23944

The whole of Kruger's top management were there, indicating concern, but they simply wouldn't/couldn't budge in public!

Admitting any mistake regarding big issues would seem to be tantamount to losing face, and that is a massive stumbling block! :cry:


To be honest, the only way getting out of it without losing face is for Government to up their subsidy, which they also refuse to do!


(Although they did come up with an unbudgeted for R250 Million+ two days ago to pay bonuses for councillors who lost in last year's elections!) O/

Not off topic, as it concerns finances? :?
Bushcraft wrote:IMO, based on the fact that SANParks top brass refuse to meet with any of us/concerned public/etc or address “difficult” pertinent questions says it all.

3d, many of us have been trying to enter into discussions politely for a long time now and have been ignored, called purists, racist, etc, etc.

I notice that you were active on the Satara party issue and again people where accused of talking in circles and IMO because of the lack of response from SANParks.
1) Either it’s permitted to party all night in KNP on New Year’s Eve and hence all visitors can do the same, or
2) The 9pm rule is enforced 365 days of the year including New Year’s Eve, hence the SANParks staff involved will be disciplined.

For me it’s one of the 2.

As the 9pm no noise rule was broken that night the consumer protection act would deem it as false advertising, therefore all there that night could legally demand their money back surely.

Why can’t SANParks management just step up and answer the public, especially on their own forum.

IMO, because they don’t have the answers and have dropped the ball.
threedogs wrote:Richprins what could they not admit to making a mistake on? What if they genuinely don't believe they have made a mistake? Why do they not want to meet and engage in earnest discussion? Why do they not want to answer questions clearly and timely? What if it is about feeling threatened, targeted, ridiculed, criticised, accused etc? Not many people will put themselves in that position whether it is a real threat or just a perceived one in their own mind. I am not sure what issues you are specifically referring to so am just playing devil's advocate. I admit I have also been disappointed that Sanparks are often not forthright on some concerns raised. I think it is still a divide in a wider sense that proves self defeating for all. A very complex and difficult set of circumstances which is stymieing progressive debate.
We all need to have more compassion for each other. Try to look deeply at our motivation, at what has shaped us and our opinions and beliefs so we can take the positive forward and discard the negative. To keep extending the hand in a gesture of true friendship and reconciliation again and again and again and again until it is believed and not rejected. That takes persistence and humility and courage and it takes time. I don't profess to these qualities; in Australia we have a long way to go and I constantly have to question my own beliefs, assumptions and opinions. Sometimes it is good to 'drop the storyline' for a moment and quietly take stock on a personal level. Then maybe when we go back to the tasks at hand we do so from a wiser place.
Anyhow, enough of my deep and meaningful rambling. My child wants to appropriate my internet connection (compassion level dropping, irritation rising :lol: ) Regards everyone!
iNdlovu wrote:3d's. I really like what you are saying and how you say it. There is a big problem with braking down a big barrier no matter how it was created. I would love nothing more than a sit down with SanParks management in order to get to the truth once and for all, then we can all play open cards from there on. There's just too much hiding of issues and deceit at the moment and we (both sides) need to see all the cards. No more sneaking things through without public participation, lets all play by the rules.
Poplap wrote:Valid points from all concerned. \O


3d, I think you are just what we need here. I hear you and you get two golden stars for both your insightful, well-balanced posts.


BUT, I am here because of four issues:


* Erecting hotels (where there are already hotels (read concessions) that can't make ends meet) in Kruger, occupying more land that does not belong to them, but to the world, and not to the world per se, but to the fauna and flora;
* Allowing and being part and parcel of a tri-agreement to coal mine (by your country) next to (read almost on top of) a UNESCO World Heritage Site that WILL ruin (scientific proof from other coal mining sites) that site for all and forever; and
* Logging in a yellow wood forest (that you, by law, are supposed to protect???) for monetary gain and nothing else;
* Selling rhinos that might be purchased for horn harvesting???

So forget about the maintenance, lack thereof, roads, etc, etc, etc, but these four issues are the bottom line of conservation gone wrong. Very wrong!.


And we tried to have our say, we really-really tried, with reserve, with kindness, with irritation, subtly so, openly so, directly so, but we got chopped one-by-one?

Now if that is not a clear enough indication of partiality and that two-way communication is not what 'they want', and that they are far worst than the Censor Board of the olden days, then I don't know what is. I can also not belong to a community, albeit a 'virtual' one, where I am not allowed to put my views forward without fear of being chopped/alienated. Where we all play 'house-house' and all is gooood, all is gooood. (Honestly, those are the only comments that are in fact welcomed, as the SP Forum is a mere (very cheap, but very effective!) marketing tool for Sanparks. (And nothing wrong with that!) BUT I cannot participate in a marketing effort where I know that Sanparks is all for commercialisation and no longer for preservation and conservation. I can honestly not as it goes against all that I stand for.

But, having said all this, I can and will not participate in a Forum with a political onslaught. So AW members must steer clear of politics and concentrate on the (conservation) issues at hand.
Richprins wrote:Ja, SP management clamped down over there, no matter how much it is denied! :evil:

So that is on-topic, I think! :twisted:
threedogs wrote:Hey Poplap I hear what you are saying and they are very serious conservation issues. I do have to say that I don't agree that Sanparks is all about commercialisation and not conservation. Certainly they appear to be making decisions which seem to the detriment of some conservation values. But I do not think they are going to throw the baby out with bathwater. Also, don't believe for a minute that this frightening encroachment onto or near conservation areas is just in/near South African parks due to bad management. These issues are increasing all over the world in developed and developing countries alike. I don't know if Micetta a member on SP forum is a member of this forum but they have posted an article on SP from an outdoor magazine called 'Resource Lockdown' which introduces the subject of the pressures on governmental bodies and communities as the global population continues to increase and pressure for resources also increases. I fear you and me and others the world over are going to have to try to be a part of some very innovative solutions if we are to have any hope of saving wild places for the future. There are two things here. We depend on ecological services delivered by healthy and interconnected ecosystems to survive - we are good at forgetting that. Secondly, ecosystems have an inherent and intrinsic value. As the battle for resources escalates we are going to be in a conundrum: we need land and water and energy to feed people and house people and power our industrialisation and yet we need intact ecosystems for long term human survival. I don't know for how much longer we can hang on to wild places in developing countries with burgeoning populations. Even if we could wave a magic wand and turn SP management into our idea of conservation angels how long before the poor and landless on the fringes of these areas decide they have had enough and if the government can't provide jobs and economic empowerment they will take over this land and wildlife for themselves (not realising that will not solve their problems in the long term either). It is a challenge not just for South Africa or other African nations but many countries in Asia like Sri Lanka and India for example and areas in Central and South America too. By all means we must look at the current threats to conservation and focus some attention on those but unless we start to address the bigger picture I worry that the consequences in the future will be quite unthinkable. But we cannot get depressed and defeated, we need to think harder and smarter and remain optimistic \O
I have no answers in how to engage with SP on a meaningful level when they seem to want to stonewall on the immediate issues to hand. That is very difficult. I guess we can only keep trying.
Geza wrote:Some very interesting points indeed.

\O

My take on it is very simplistic. Maybe too much so. If the proposed developments are so harmless (hotel development), then why the shroud of secrecy and the absolute refusal to encourage or even allow debate and discussion on it?

What are they trying to hide? As far as we know, the EIA is flawed and possibly biased. Some of the choices of sites for these hotels are known to be environmentally sensitive. For example, the proposed site at Melelane is very close to the nesting site of the rare Pels fishing owl. While the proposed hotel may not have an impact on it once built, the construction phase of it may be devastating.

Let's suppose for the sake of debate, that once developed, the hotels are nothing ore benign to KNP than drinking a glass of water: Why then is there this veil of secrecy, and why are all of the concerns not being addressed?

Simplistically, I think it's because they are hiding things. If there is nothing to hide, then open it up for discussion and set our concerns to rest. I'm sure that once this has been done, we'll all stop barking and crying foul.

Then again, what if they really are wrong? How much damage to the environment that could have been avoided and how long will it take to recover? Can it recover?

Can KNP allow for more traffic in an already highly congested southern region? Can it support the increased carbon footprint? How many more speeding delivery trucks will be in and out of Kruger to support the extra food, drink and other logistical issues related to running the hotels?

How many more animals will fall victim to road kill because of this?

Way too many questions not being addressed.

WHY?

What are they trying to hide? If there truly is nothing then there should be no fear of opening it all up to public scrutiny. It's that simple.

Perhaps I am being elitist by wanting KNP to be the way it was in the late 80's. A nice quiet place to escape the big city and see and hear animals in a natural environment that has had little change made to it to make it "human friendly".

This is the bush, it is nature, civilising it is not in it's best interest. We only have to look at the world in it's current state and see the number of extinct animals to know that mans involvement can only lead to catastrophe. What if we are correct? How do we fix it afterwards?

And lastly, this is not about who is right or wrong IMHO, it's about preserving nature the way that Stevenson- Hamilton envisaged it. To keep nature as virginal as possible.

Just my thoughts on this one.

I do value the opinions of others because it challenges my thinking. I encourage debate because it makes me think.

Until I am convinced that this is good for Kruger's inmates (for surely the animals there are incarcerated) I will continue to be opposed to any and all developments making it more user friendly.
threedogs wrote:Hey BunnyHugger I have many of the same questions and concerns re the Hotel development as you. However I don't honestly think there is some conspiracy to hide everything from the public. What I do think is that they are an organisation with a mandate to manage the park. As part of their management plan and strategy for the future they have come up with this hotel development (rightly or wrongly). (Have you read the park management plan in its entirety?) They have gone through a consultation phase (flawed or otherwise). They have or are going through the environmental impact studies (flawed or otherwise). They believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have and are following due process. Therefore given all of the above, like other businesses, organisations, institutions and particularly government departments, they probably don't believe that they need to constantly be answering endless questions and queries regarding the development and the justification of it.
Sprocky wrote:There I have to disagree threedogs. SANParks are merely the custodians of KNP and other parks, which is the entire countries heritage. They do not own the parks, so it is only right that they fully inform the public of what their plans are. Without us, the general public, they wouldn't have jobs of this type.
threedogs wrote:@Sprocky: yes they are custodians but you can say that about the government as a whole. They get elected to serve the people and to look after our countries interests. As such of course they must be accountable to their electorate - the countries citizens. Now we all know that governments and their departments and institutions do not always live up to our expectations and deliver the results we want. As those they represent we have every right to ask the hard questions and demand answers.
The thing is, bureaucracy has its systems put in place ostensibly to take into account the input of 'stakeholders' (hate that word). They also have systems to convey the plans they have and the studies they have done as part of the approval process for a particular project. (A process that would be documented somewhere in law or management plans or a combination of both.) This is pretty much the same as we have here and most developed countries. Once a project is at the stage it is now it is not always realistic to expect the entity involved to keep answering every Joe Public with a concern legitimate or otherwise if the process has been duly followed. (That is one reason they come up with these processes) If this was the case projects would take an interminable amount of time as people kept coming up with queries - many that are addressed and covered in the documents already mentioned. Now you might not feel that the documents concerned addressed all your questions -that is often the case. And in the end not everyone is going to be satisfied - that is reality. I am not saying you give up or never put forward your questions in the first place. And I am not saying the 'process' is an infallible one or that due diligence in following it has occurred. I am just saying we need to bear in mind the way these departments and organisations work, frustrating as that is.
Sprocky wrote:
threedogs wrote:@Sprocky: yes they are custodians but you can say that about the government as a whole. They get elected to serve the people and to look after our countries interests. As such of course they must be accountable to their electorate - the countries citizens. Now we all know that governments and their departments and institutions do not always live up to our expectations and deliver the results we want. As those they represent we have every right to ask the hard questions and demand answers.
The thing is, bureaucracy has its systems put in place ostensibly to take into account the input of 'stakeholders' (hate that word). They also have systems to convey the plans they have and the studies they have done as part of the approval process for a particular project. (A process that would be documented somewhere in law or management plans or a combination of both.) This is pretty much the same as we have here and most developed countries. Once a project is at the stage it is now it is not always realistic to expect the entity involved to keep answering every Joe Public with a concern legitimate or otherwise if the process has been duly followed. (That is one reason they come up with these processes) If this was the case projects would take an interminable amount of time as people kept coming up with queries - many that are addressed and covered in the documents already mentioned. Now you might not feel that the documents concerned addressed all your questions -that is often the case. And in the end not everyone is going to be satisfied - that is reality. I am not saying you give up or never put forward your questions in the first place. And I am not saying the 'process' is an infallible one or that due diligence in following it has occurred. I am just saying we need to bear in mind the way these departments and organisations work, frustrating as that is.
Look at the red section in your quote. This is where the problem lies. When we started asking questions about the hotels, SANParks denied that there was any plans for such forms of accommodation in the park. The rumours were already running of what the plans were, still they denied it. After some time of being in denial, out popped the plans. These documents dated back a few years, way before the rumours or questions came about. Now where was public involvement when this all started?

There are already doing the rounds of three more hotels to be erected in the park. Now where there is smoke there's usually fire. They have also denied that there are any plans to build any further hotels in the park. All I can say is "Watch this space"!
Poplap wrote:... and doing away with the self-drive option... by Dr Mabunda himself. And, and, etc...


And then there is also the hotel 'stakeholder' :twisted: company and the Sanparks board member, etc etc etc.


3ds, valid points, I hear you. But let's forget about the hotel issue only. What's there to say for a custodian that allows coal mining on top of a UNESCO World Heritage Site? Or a Government allowing it? To a foreign company? Or a custodian harvesting centuries-old yellow wood trees for financial gain?


Bottom line is - conservation and preservation are clearly not the main focus the business plan (which I've read).


And I understand the shortage of funds, less Government subsidy :evil: :evil:, the poor v the 'elite' (you want insight into my bank account? :lol: :oops: - no seriously, still very, very blessed in comparison with others!) - but then how on earth can our Government afford an ANC-celebration in Bloemfontein now for R100 million? Money that belongs to the taxpayers? Money that belongs to continued and sustained preservation and conservation? Please note that I am not blaming SANParks, but it is all part of the bigger picture that has a direct impact on our sanctuaries. On the poor. On the homeless. On those without electricity and water, sewerage. Which eventually ends up in our drinking water (more plastic bottles, greater expense, more cholera, more poor people dying), rivers, estuaries, killing wildlife. Vicious circle. :evil: :evil: (And no politics - mere facts).


http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/201 ... rand-party
iNdlovu wrote:If the removal of the government subsidy is the cause of their decisions, why don't they say so instead of alluding to all kinds of half truths and getting involved in activities that Poplap has mentioned that absolutely fly in the face of conservation. The Sanparks board were appointed by the DEA to manage and conserve, so far I see that they are managing (extremely poorly) and conservation is not a part of their equation.
Instead of alienating so many people by their underhanded secrecy, why not get us involved so we can eat this buffalo together.
The way I see it, the hotels are not going to achieve what they hope to achieve and with the support of all sectors of South Africans we could probably come up with ideas and plans that will achieve, but we cannot help with the problem when Mabunda and his board don't play open cards. Just maybe they can't open up, with too many skeletons already in the closet.
3D, the problem is that this Africa with all its problems, beliefs and 3rd world manipulations. Unless you have lived here for a long period of time, you would not be aware of so many things that are 'normal' here. It has become acceptable and is almost deemed normal that people in power from the very top down to the clerk in admin buried somewhere within a government department is entitled to line their own pockets with tax payers money, and we're not talking the odd case here. SanParks' game of secrecy only gives fuel to the fire that they are playing the same game, especially when you take a close look at some of their decisions and the mechanics they have put in place to support those decisions.
threedogs wrote:Sorry Poplap I don't have answers for you there.
Here we can vote crap state and federal governments out and corruption and misuse of treasury funds is not an issue (although it happens - just MUCH MUCH MUCH less). What sort of opposition parties have you got? Is there any hope there? If this government doesn't perform and deliver results to a majority in some tangible way, how will/does it survive? I apologise that my knowledge of South African politics is fairly basic I'm more familiar with Zimbabwe's political scene - (remember it could be worse :shock: )
Oh and as an aside here in Oz we are currently dredging out a large swathe of coast for an upgraded port right INSIDE the Great Barrier Reef World Heritage Site so we can ship more gas and coal to China. Just like the plans for ones on the other side of the country in one of the last truly pristine marine/coastal environments and yes the projects have large Asian investors. Of course concerned conservationists and ordinary citizens are protesting and demanding answers, just like you are, and what are they getting? Spin and endless talking in circles without actually saying anything. Yep, money talks everywhere, not just in developing countries with dodgy governments. And even if you vote them out, too often the next lot just see the dollar (revenue) signs which overrides everything else. I suppose it boils down to mobilising a big enough and loud enough groundswell of discontent and you need open and honest media on your side too to expose incompetence and corruption. Here at least if dishonest or truly bad governmental mismanagement is nationally exposed the offender/s (or a convenient scapegoat) will feel the full force of the law where appropriate or resign and fade into obscurity (or the back bench of parliament never to rise again).
Getting back to all the rumours about future development in the park - look, the thought of no self-drive horrifies me. I wouldn't be back, I can say that categorically. That is what we come for. I can't believe that they would even contemplate that this would work? Revenue would plunge. Who wants to sit up in a jeep being led about by the nose like a complete nitwit? Don't get me wrong I like the odd night drive but I don't want to endlessly sit in vehicles with people who don't know an impala from a kudu. It would be business suicide. As for the extra hotels....well, I am undecided. I don't want the park so crowded that it is like a motorway out there. We need to see how this one pans out - I'll take my cue from that in due course. I think the comercialisation started way back when you got tar roads and large camps. It's sort of like trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted - and it went long ago.) On other forums I am constantly defending Kruger to people who shun it for just this reason - being too much like a zoo (not my words). :evil:
iNdlovu wrote:Hey 3D isn't it so sad what greed is doing to our planet, I can't believe your govt is so brave to build a massive harbor on the coast inside the barrier reef. :evil: :evil: :evil:
Your comment about free and honest media just flew out the window with our recently passed secrecy bill, so no help there.
Poplap wrote:
threedogs wrote:Sorry Poplap I don't have answers for you there.
Here we can vote crap state and federal governments out and corruption and misuse of treasury funds is not an issue (although it happens - just MUCH MUCH MUCH less). What sort of opposition parties have you got? Is there any hope there? If this government doesn't perform and deliver results to a majority in some tangible way, how will/does it survive? I apologise that my knowledge of South African politics is fairly basic I'm more familiar with Zimbabwe's political scene - (remember it could be worse :shock: )
Oh and as an aside here in Oz we are currently dredging out a large swathe of coast for an upgraded port right INSIDE the Great Barrier Reef World Heritage Site so we can ship more gas and coal to China. Just like the plans for ones on the other side of the country in one of the last truly pristine marine/coastal environments and yes the projects have large Asian investors. Of course concerned conservationists and ordinary citizens are protesting and demanding answers, just like you are, and what are they getting? Spin and endless talking in circles without actually saying anything. Yep, money talks everywhere, not just in developing countries with dodgy governments. And even if you vote them out, too often the next lot just see the dollar (revenue) signs which overrides everything else. I suppose it boils down to mobilising a big enough and loud enough groundswell of discontent and you need open and honest media on your side too to expose incompetence and corruption. Here at least if dishonest or truly bad governmental mismanagement is nationally exposed the offender/s (or a convenient scapegoat) will feel the full force of the law where appropriate or resign and fade into obscurity (or the back bench of parliament never to rise again).
Getting back to all the rumours about future development in the park - look, the thought of no self-drive horrifies me. I wouldn't be back, I can say that categorically. That is what we come for. I can't believe that they would even contemplate that this would work? Revenue would plunge. Who wants to sit up in a jeep being led about by the nose like a complete nitwit? Don't get me wrong I like the odd night drive but I don't want to endlessly sit in vehicles with people who don't know an impala from a kudu. It would be business suicide. As for the extra hotels....well, I am undecided. I don't want the park so crowded that it is like a motorway out there. We need to see how this one pans out - I'll take my cue from that in due course. I think the comercialisation started way back when you got tar roads and large camps. It's sort of like trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted - and it went long ago.) On other forums I am constantly defending Kruger to people who shun it for just this reason - being too much like a zoo (not my words). :evil:
Again, I hear you, 3dogs, and again, very valid points from you and iNd.

The attitude Dr Mabunda had (well, in fact, he has it every time he addresses the media/public on these developments) and the way he announced the no-longer self-drive option somewhere in the future, and the almost hatred he said it with and with such arrogance, shocked me (and perhaps you too?). I'll try and find the footage and let you have the link. (As far as I know, from a scuba diving perspective, your Reef started dying off 20 odd years ago... very, very sadly so, and is still dying by the second... so your Government is merely speeding up the process. Eisch! ... But your Government has surely lost the plot to allow this... :evil: and so has ours.)

Of course the Park was and has been commercialised, and yes, the horse has bolted, and that is EXACTLY why we are against any further development/zoo-like/Disney-world Park. Somewhere, somehow, we need to say enough is enough, two wrongs don't make a right, let's stop this so-called development/commercialisation/over exploitation of this wonderful gem and let it be. Let's (properly) maintain what there is and let's do if for no other cause but for the well-being of the fauna and flora and continued tourism that generates much, much need income from Western noses (sic).

And the moment you force me onto a bus full of clueless people :twisted: /those that know more than me :twisted: /wants to drive away from a chameleon crossing the road to look at a sleeping lion 2 km into the bush... :twisted: well, that's when you can also assume that I will find other reserves (which there are plenty in SA) to have my self-drive experience. For our family it is not only a question of doing what we want, looking at what we want, but it is also bonding time... and after four days, working on each others nerves :twisted: - yet still lovingly so, let alone abeing surrounded by strangers, being squashed in, others deciding when it is time for me to go to the loo or not, when the aircon is too cold or not, etc.). :twisted: :evil:
threedogs wrote:
Dr Mabunda's tone has really offended me in a lot of his words that I have read - very divisive and aggressive and dismissive of overseas visitors too. As I said above - I do not believe for a minute that a total park and ride system would work in any way. Who is going to use such a thing? A few backpackers and people who are there for their one off Kruger 'safari' 3 day trip with no intention of return. These people already are catered for with outside operators and private lodges. And SO and I won't be there spending R13,000 p.a. directly to SANPARKS each year OR as is our intention in the not too distant future, to live for our max. 3 month visa in Phalaborwa and go into the park nearly every day. There is the potential to lose a large injection of cash into the SA economy not just from SP coffers. But then some people will cut off their nose to spite their face (and suffer the consequences). I think worst case scenario if this is implemented it would prove such a disaster that with any luck the top management would go and the decision turned around.
I am sure if you polled all overnight guests in the park re eliminating self-drive the results would be a landslide and they wouldn't be in favour of it obviously. So are SP really serious or just putting a few shots over the bows?
iNdlovu wrote:3D, who knows -O- This is my problem with Dr Mabunda and his board, you never know what is truth and what is fiction, nothing is honest and open. If it is 'putting a shot over the bows" what would the purpose be of doing this, he's just going to tick off a lot more people.
Richprins wrote:It is a lot like childish posturing in a school playground, sometimes...

For example, Dr Mabunda would have got some slaps on the back from his chums after his "stick it to the conservatives" speech at Cop17...which is obviously more important to him. Long-term thinking is not really a strong point amongst our powers that be. Conversely, they can just as easily adapt according to which way the wind blows, provided they don't lose face, as I said! :P

So anything can happen, which is why we must keep trying!

Also, deep down they are actually afraid of and concerned about foreigners' opinions, and desperate for approval, IMO, hence the cleaning up of cities for last year's World Cup and Cop17 itself, for example. (Not a uniquely South African mindset at all!)

So your opinions are very important, 3d, and carry a lot of weight! 8)
Richprins wrote:The self-drive concept, as I understand it, is something to be discarded in the long term as Camps/hotels will be restricted to the boundaries of the Park, according to the Serengeti model. Only luxury camps will be inside.

Sanparks are very jealous of what they see as the highly lucrative Open Safari Vehicle market, (It is not really that lucrative, as Groovy will tell you), and do everything in their power to make things as difficult as possible for OSV's to operate, re fees and terms and conditions.

So the idea is, one day in the future, for tourists to park at border camps/hotels and ONLY make use of Sanparks OSV's, at extra cost.

Theoretically, according to this bright idea, only Lower Sabie, Satara, Olifants, Letaba, Mopani and Shingwedzi Camps will therefore be "lost"...though I have no idea what will happen to them and the jobs they create. (In fact, the Northern Camps may be spared as they do not provide as much income year-round anyway)

The thing is, there is no reason to believe that Sanparks will not also grant "outsource tenders" to say the new hotels at Orpen and Phalaborwa, leaving Sanparks with money but a corresponding loss of jobs.

Also, once OSV operators then go bust, and traditional self-drive visitors turn their attention elsewhere,(especially non-rich foreigners), and neighbouring small-scale accommodation providers also go bust, the spinoff industries around Kruger will decline quickly, leading to further job and income losses.

Once the hotels have been built, those construction jobs will also be gone...perhaps to be replaced by jobs at the hotels, but rather presumably the sidelined Kruger Camps' jobs which would be transferred to the hotels, leaving no new spaces for the community.

But Sanparks will by then have made their money.
Penga Ndlovu wrote:Post by Jumbo on the book of Faces:

SANParks, today you yet again showed your lack of commitment to deal with the rhino poaching issue. Your representative merely left the parliamentary public hearing before closure…not even following protocol to inform the chairman. His “excuse” …he had to catch his flight…honestly, what type of message does this send out??? The topic discussed should be vital to you…that is if you still view conservation as your main mandate. I wonder if your representative would have taken a later flight if this was a discussion about the hotels? This is an absolute disgrace!!


Well said Jumbo. :evil: :evil: :evil:
serval wrote:The Sanparks representative leaves the parliamentary public hearing unannounced , while others who travel at their own cost & in their time , are courteous enough to remain .

http://www.sanparks.org/forums/viewtopi ... start=2880

From SP forum :

DinkyBird
Post subject: Re: PoachingPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:47 am

Moderator

SANParks has requested that this topic be locked until they reply to the above post.

_________________
Sawubona,
Dalene
iNdlovu wrote:I had an extremely interesting discussion with highly educated black friend of mine yesterday about the poaching issue, Dr Mabunda & SanParks. He is very well connected in the 'ruling circles' but in his words "can & never will vote for the ANC".
He has been to Mabunda's house and stated that even for politicians it is a mansion. In addition he said in his opinion, Mabunda is a politician and that's where is aspirations lie. All his talk of elitists, the entire population visiting the parks, hotels etc are all rhetoric that will gain political support when Mabunda finally brakes into the game full time. At the moment he is on such a good wicket that he doesn't have to make the move. In his opinion Sanparks is Mabunda's tool to enrich himself and to build his political popularity and that's it. He has no love for the wild, it's animals etc. Once he has earned all he can from it from a political and financial point of view he will discard it and move into politics full time.
He said for the sake of our natural places, we need to concentrate on pulling the handbrake on Mabunda, once he feels the gravy train slowing down, he'll jump and all the stuff we are seeing now, including the hotel issue will fade away.
Lisbeth wrote:The first part of your friend's words is nothing new , at least to me and I have already expressed myself in those terms. The second part fills me with hope and I certainly wish that it will come true.

Dr. Mabunda can make much more harm in his present position, where he can make decisions than as a politician where his power is very limited if he does not reach the top and even then.

He said for the sake of our natural places, we need to concentrate on pulling the handbrake on Mabunda,
This before it is too late!!!


Post Reply

Return to “General Management Issues - SANParks”